B-Sides: Cell Phones in Schools

In this first B-Sides track from Plugged In S1 E1, Marc and Rachel chat with Shelby and Derek about student cell phone policies and approaches in their school districts, and the larger national debate.

Transcript

Shelby (00:00)
You can cut all of that out. I was trying really hard to like wait for it to so I could be like, hold on, fart, and then you could cut all that stuff out.

Marc (00:07)
This is not getting cut out. I'm sorry.

Rachel (00:09)
Yeah, so there's another topic kind of that's big this month and I see it in headlines in the national news. see it in the headlines in regional news and in state news. Lots of districts discussing cell phones. It was a hot topic last spring as well. And is it the yonder pouches? Is that right? The ones that took off like wildfire.

Still lots of gnashing of teeth and wringing of hands on what is true, what to do about it, how we feel about it, safety now that smacks into learning and mental health considerations and just expectations of parents who like being able to get their kids at any moment during the day and have grown accustomed to that now.

Marc (00:49)
When I kind of popped in, you were talking about it, Rachel and Shelby, you were talking about the meeting you were just at, right? Was that correct?

Shelby (00:57)
Yeah, I've been co-facilitating a task force this year to write policy and procedure related to limiting personal. We're not so much calling it phones, we're talking about personal devices, inclusive of phones and smartwatches and glasses and angel sense things and laptops and tablets and all the things that are coming to school with our kids. And I met with my superintendent yesterday, meet with him fairly regularly, especially on this topic, and I was telling him this is one of the most challenging leadership assignments I've been given in a really long time. I don't know how much the three of you are spending talking about this topic in your own communities, but the difference of opinion across the continuum about personal devices is not surprising, but when you bump into it, when you're trying to write policy and procedure, the passion that people bring to this topic is, well, kind of alarming in some cases. Everything from folks who've read The Anxious Generation and are, I will say disciples of John Haight's work, very eager to eradicate access to personal devices at home, at school, all the time. No social media, no nothing. Let's let kids go back on the playground. A lot of folks on our task force have those opinions and also, folks that are proponents of teaching kids skills that they're gonna need, 10 minutes after they walk off the graduation platform with their diplomas. And so trying to facilitate a group to move forward in a productive direction and try to meet everyone's needs and also abide by the guidance produced by OSPI and Chris Reykdal and tend to the trending social expectations, it's a really complex conversation. And some states are making it easy. They're just saying, as a state, we're going to tell you to do it a particular way. And that is not what's happened in Washington. And so we find ourselves having to create local policy and listen to people and try to implement with fidelity some policies that not everybody agrees with. so it's been a lovely challenge.

My favorite experiences, I think, so far have been sitting with our student advisory board and listening to the students on our task force, primarily because there are folks, and many of you, many of them I'm sure you've interacted with, who believe wholeheartedly that kids are addicts, that they can't possibly control themselves with social media and with devices. there's this pervasive opinion that kids are not equipped mentally to be able to handle the demands of having a device in their pocket or at the ready. And I just, you personally, this is my own opinion and it's based solely on the parenting of my kids and my experiences with my 19 and 15 year olds. I don't find that to be true. I don't think we can safely say that all kids are addicts and that they're all, you know, hypnotized by the magic of social media and digital tools. And so it's been it's been interesting to try to find that healthy balance and to promote the idea that we can teach kids these important skills and listening to students tell stories. I sat next to a student at our student advisory board yesterday who said, I'm really glad to know that we're considering less restrictive policies at the high school level because I work.

I work to save up money for college and I need to be able to communicate with my employer. I need to be able to understand if my schedule has changed or if something has happened at work so that I can be better equipped to fulfill my duties at my job. And I'm like, that kid's not an addict. That kid is using his device for good and not evil, so to speak. And so that has been the joy of this work for me is listening to students.

Rachel (04:42)
Did you solicit feedback and do listening sessions with parents also and is there a is there a tilt in the balance because I'm not I'm a second row back from this work in our region is it close to 50-50 students or parents is it weighted really heavily one side to the other well

Derek (04:43)
Oh no, I was, go ahead and reach me, please.

Shelby (05:03)
course,

it depends on how you ask the question, right? We did a survey this last fall. We did a pretty comprehensive survey. We got about 7,000 responses. We're in a district of about 22,500 students. So 6,000 or 7,000 responses is pretty good when you think of that inclusive of mostly our secondary students, staff, and families. And after doing some data analysis to present to cabinet,

it was pretty clear that, of course, students want more agency at the secondary level when you kind of look at who responded to the survey. And students also indicated that they want education, they want experiences to help them understand, you know, how to look at screen time and how to understand how to institute for yourself healthy balance, healthy habits, safety and well-being and those kinds of things. Staff.

And this isn't a knock against staff. I totally understand the draw of being able to say, we have a district policy and I can't do anything about it. Put your phone away and let's be done with it. Staff were very much opposed to any sort of personal devices coming into schools with students because many staff are seeing the, are feeling the stress of having to remind students all the time, put it away, put it away, put it away, or listening to the beeps and the boops and seeing the distraction and.

not having students engaged in class. Parents, not surprisingly, their main concern as articulated in the feedback we got in the survey was about safety. They overwhelmingly want to be able to get a hold of their student during the day. And that's not to say that they expected there to be a personal way to get a hold of their student, but mainly they wanted to be assured that in a

an emergency situation that they would get timely information about what was going on. And so I think one of the biggest lifts that we're going to have moving forward with our district-wide expectations is helping our families to understand what the communication strategies are, especially in emergency situations. Because I think there's, know, without a very clear expectations set forth on our students and families about what happens in an active shooter situation or

a safe inside situation or fire, The assumption is, well, I want my kid to have a device on them because I don't have confidence that I'm going to get communication about what's going on with my kid otherwise. Ironically, the research shows us that in security and emergency situations, having kids all have personal devices can hamper efforts to successfully make it through a safety situation.

You know, kids clogging cell phone lines, taking video of things and posting those things to social media. And then the rumor mill whips up or we're creating chaos for our communications departments who then are having to respond to social media posts instead of actually focusing on the communication plan for the school. And then the one that I think resonates with me the most is, you know, students have personal devices and they're communicating with parents, parents and guardians first reaction is I got to get in the car and drive to the school.

And so then we have jammed up parking lots and traffic issues that cause our first responders not to be able to do their jobs. So I think as much as we can get that message out to families and help them understand the detriments to having personal devices rampantly used during safety situations and the more confidence we can build in our communication protocols, the more successful we'll be in implementing a less phone environment.

Marc (08:14)
And I am curious, Derek, what you're doing, because we're next to each other. So I'm sure you hear as often as I do, what is North Thurston doing? Let's do the same thing.

Derek (08:25)
So I text Mark like, hey, what are you guys doing on this? Like two or three times a week. Northurst, so we went head long into the off and away all day policy. Since the beginning of school, there's been no cell phones in the classrooms. It was actually an ask from the teachers union. They really pushed for it. And also obviously distractions from instructional.

ramifications that come from kids using their cell phones. Not to say that I don't see some cell phones out in classrooms when I'm out in the building still. And the teachers haven't reminded the students of doing that. Obviously, there was some pretty significant pushback, just like Shelby mentioned, especially on the parent side of being able to reach my kid, being able to have contact with my kiddo at any given time if I need to get a hold of them. And the district really pushed the messaging of if you need to get a hold of your child, call the office and we will.

track your kid down just like all of us had to do when we were going up through school and whatnot. And for us, it's worked out and the kids, the feedback for the most part is a lot of students like that that isn't a factor now. Like the pressure amongst friends to have yourself and not be reached 24 seven, like that some of that is taken off because of the policy. There's kids that absolutely hate it. Like some parents.

We don't go quite as far as like the yonder bags or stuff like that. So, you know, if there was an emergency, the kids could turn their cell phones on if they needed to. And they still have access to their device if they need to.

Shelby (09:41)
question for you. There's a nuance that our task force wrestled with a little bit, and that is we have decided to go K8 off and away all day. So no passing periods, no lunch, no buses, none of that stuff. But at 9-12, our policy is going to allow for use of personal devices during passing times, nutrition breaks, and before and after school. Is that consistent with what you're doing?

Derek (10:06)
For us, it's if you're on school property, they're off on the way. It doesn't matter if it's passing period lunch, the expectation is that they're not turned on and not accessible. If they have a smart watch, it's supposed to be in airplane mode. Again, mileage might vary classroom to classroom on how heavily that's, or consistently that's enforced, but the district policy and expectation is that they're away. And for us, we're 15,000 kids, just a little shy of that. The sky didn't fall for us.

there was definitely a learning curve and it was tough and there were some tough conversations, you know, with the district administration at the higher levels and the school boards and stuff around those policies. But we've been pretty happy with, I mean, and if you go Google NTPs off and away, you'll see there's King five came down, they interviewed us, there's videos on King five and all that good stuff about some of the kids providing feedback and whatnot. And we've been pleasantly surprised at how well it's gone for us. mean, like any new

big, big policy change. was definitely some hiccups and some, you know, adjustment for the students and the teachers on that piece. But for us, it's been successful this year.

Shelby (11:12)
of our hurdles might be to the consistent reinforcement from classroom to classroom. think there's, there's a, I would say a false confidence that we're going to have a district policy and all of a sudden the world is going to change and culture is going to shift and all we needed was a district policy. And I'm quick to remind people that we have district policies around curriculum too and you're not using the core curriculum. So I think enforcement and cultural shift and

I wouldn't say enforcement. I would say reinforcement of the expectations and a systemic belief in why this is good for kids is something that I think it's going to take time. think it'll take time for us, despite the fact that we have a couple of schools that, especially at the secondary level, that have gone to no sell bell to bell. But even at those schools that have had those requirements in place for a while, there's still.

I can go visit a school that's no cell from bell to bell and go into a classroom where teachers are like, this QR code. It's like, what are you doing with the QR code if you're not supposed to have kids with cell phones? So it's a cultural shift and one that doesn't just rely on a district policy.

Derek (12:12)
Yeah.

Marc (12:21)
think this is a topic that we definitely should revisit in a different episode because there's a lot to unpack here. know, for example, and I'll just leave it with this. I was talking to a CIO of another state who is quietly in his district trying to introduce the idea that everything should happen through a phone and that they would provide phones to families and students who don't have, you know, run it all.

because that's what everybody is gonna use once they leave the system. And so instead of fighting it and hiding it and trying to control it, let's give them exactly what they need. And I've been met with a lot of, when I've told people about it, a lot of open mouths. Like I can't believe somebody would do that.

Rachel (13:02)
But I

Shelby (13:03)
It's just throw out just as a because I can't help myself.

Assertion that there is causality between the access to a phone and mental health issues. The data while it's being presented very with lots of fanfare and in hardcover things with fun covers. I'm not buying it. We have a director of data and research and he and I have had long conversations about false, potentially false.

assertions that there is a causality between access to a phone or access to a mobile device and mental health issues. Are there some kids who suffer from having access to those things? Yes, of course. That is a symptom of something different than just, I have a phone and it's not necessarily solvable by taking the phone away. I don't think we're teaching kids a whole lot by just taking the phone away.

Derek (13:51)
And one thing on the IT side that is consideration is you take cell phones away and all of sudden I've deployed probably 50 webcams to math classrooms this year because they have nothing to take pictures of their math problems with anymore. Like, hey, take a picture of your math problem, post it to Canvas or something like that. We don't have forward-facing cameras on our Chromebooks. And so I've had to deploy a bunch of webcams because they can't use their cell phones anymore. So there's all those fringe things you don't think about. And like, why are getting all these requests for webcams from math teachers? like...

okay.

Rachel (14:20)
What a

practical implication. And Shelby, I love that. We're pretty early in the figuring out correlation and causation on this. I want to drop in to Mark's

contentious topic that he's sharing with others, right? This person who's at the leading edge I came into this work in central Oregon in the early 2000s and there were still, we called them the boat anchor, right? Remember the old CRTs that, you know, for like this big and super heavy, not even in every classroom, And it was that teachers were required to check email.

once a week if they had a mean principal and once a month if they had like an old principal who didn't care. There was no instructional use of this, right? There were some like computer labs in the libraries and things like that. So in our career, while some of you are younger and some of us are older, we're not retirement age yet in this group. And in our career, I think when we started talking about sending laptops home with students.

20 years ago, it was like, they'll like, they'll stay up all night playing video games in their bedroom, like all the things So I don't doubt at all that 20 years from now, should we be sitting here still doing the plugged in podcast for ACPE, we could revisit this and this will totally be true because I don't know about you all, every week there's stuff that I prefer doing on my phone because the app development is better.

the usability, the accessibility is better on the phones than on the web versions of things. And so I don't doubt at all, that your colleague is charting the course through the path that's coming at us.

Marc (15:55)
Yeah, it was very interesting. know we don't have a ton of time left, but I really want to steer us back to the conference because I a ⁓ question of our guests and you, Rachel. I just simply, I want to be done today feeling with some warmth in my heart about the conference itself and what your memories are.